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Post by Keith Tanaka on Nov 11, 2012 19:44:12 GMT -8
As many of you know, the '53 Vette and AAR Cuda are currently planned to be banned starting the new year (Jan'2013).
Today at BPR, I talked with Gonzo (Hector Gonzalez) and some others concerning the fate of these cars. Gonzo (and some others) wondered why we couldn't keep these cars (especially the '53 Vette) since many racers had built or raced them. This topic had been discussed many times over the last couple of years. The consensus in the past was that the '53 Vette should be banned since it has a distinct racing advantage over the other 3 C cars. I mentioned to Gonzo that I recently went online to verify the size of the real '53 Corvette. It turns out that the Revell model is scale in dimensions. The real car was much larger (wider) than newer versions of the Corvette. Since it's scale (whereas the AAR Cuda is oversize), shouldn't it be allowed to race? I'm not for or against retaining the '53 vette, but I do understand why it makes more sense to keep it legal since so many racers have them.
During our discussions, we talked about our racer handicap system and perhaps we could have a similar handicap system used for the type of car you race.
How would this idea work? Basically, you would get a handicap for the type of 3 C car you race. For example, if you race the '53 Corvette, you would get no car handicap since it has proven to be the fastest 3 C car we race. Those who race other 3 C cars (newer vettes, Cobras, Cheetahs, T-Birds, etc.) would receive a handicap based on the performance difference between the '53 Vette and the other cars. The handicap would be calculated similar to how I handicap the racers.
At this point, it's only an idea as far as having a method to retain the '53 Vette and AAR Cuda. I want to have a group discussion at this Sunday's monthly hardbody races to go over this idea and find out if the majority of racers are in favor of such a system or not.
I hope many of our hardbody racers show up this Sunday to discuss this topic and help find a way to retain these cars while creating a more level playing field for everyone.
Hope to see you guys at BP this Sunday!
Keith
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timneja
Full Member
Love racing these hard body cars!! The new knee is working better--so I'll be back soon!!
Posts: 191
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Post by timneja on Nov 12, 2012 17:25:07 GMT -8
The only problem I see with "Handicapping"--is when a racer--like me --shows up that can be fast but has NOT run any races recently? How would you handicap Paul Sterret for example if he only shows up once a year for the Nats? Not sure how you make it fair for everyone without having a lot of races to set the handicap? Not complaining--just wondering?? I like keeping all the cars--and some of the narrower cars at the Nats--Like Jim Lange's vette were VERY fast!! FWIW
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Post by Keith Tanaka on Nov 12, 2012 17:38:03 GMT -8
The only problem I see with "Handicapping"--is when a racer--like me --shows up that can be fast but has NOT run any races recently? How would you handicap Paul Sterret for example if he only shows up once a year for the Nats? Not sure how you make it fair for everyone without having a lot of races to set the handicap? Not complaining--just wondering?? I like keeping all the cars--and some of the narrower cars at the Nats--Like Jim Lange's vette were VERY fast!! FWIW Tim, for the Nats we haven't used the handicap system (not yet anyway). If we do use the handicap system, those racers who do not have at least 3 races for a given class will have no handicap (scratch racer). That would be an incentive for any Nats racer to get in 3 races prior to the Nats if they want the best possible chance to make the podium. At this time, there's no plan to use handicaps at the Nats. Only time will tell if we do in the future. Keith
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Post by craigg on Nov 12, 2012 18:25:55 GMT -8
As I read it, for the CCC race we are not handicapping the racers but the cars themselves.
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Post by Keith Tanaka on Nov 12, 2012 19:43:25 GMT -8
Craig, for this month's races we will only use the racer handicaps for the 80's-2012 NASCAR race. All of the other races will not use handicap.
We'll discuss the '53 Corvette and AAR Cuda situation this Sunday and hopefully come up with a consensus as far as car body handicap is concerned. Who knows, maybe the racer's handicap system is enough to include the car body issue?
Keith
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timneja
Full Member
Love racing these hard body cars!! The new knee is working better--so I'll be back soon!!
Posts: 191
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Post by timneja on Nov 15, 2012 20:19:11 GMT -8
I can't be there Sunday--but I vote to keep them with NO handicaps!! It's not necessary--if you build a GOOD car--the wider car isn't necessarily at an advantage! It's still tuning and handling AND driving!!
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Post by Keith Tanaka on Nov 15, 2012 21:22:11 GMT -8
I can't be there Sunday--but I vote to keep them with NO handicaps!! It's not necessary--if you build a GOOD car--the wider car isn't necessarily at an advantage! It's still tuning and handling AND driving!! Tim, I'll keep your opinion in mind, but I do know from experience that wider cars such as the AAR Cuda "have" a distinct handling advantage over narrower cars "if" the chassis/tire width is greater than other cars. The main reason for banning the ARR Cuda body is because it is not scale, but much larger than a true scale body. Of course, I do agree that you can build a good handling narrow car, but it will not be as good as a wider chassis with the same handling characteristics. The key is the chassis/tire width dimension and not necessarily the body width. The body width only limits the tire/chassis width which can be a handicap if it's not up to the maximum width allowed. It turns out that the main reason I believe the '53 Corvette has an advantage over other 3 C bodies is mainly due to its relatively "straight" and wide body panels. No other 3 C car has the width and vertical side body panels that the '53 vette has. These characteristics help to mount the body with the least amount of built in tension which provides what is known as a "relaxed" handling chassis. Keith
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Post by Keith Tanaka on Nov 18, 2012 23:12:42 GMT -8
UPDATE: A racer's meeting was held on Sunday, Nov. 18th to discuss the '53 Corvette and other topics. The consensus of the racer's was to keep the '53 Vette body legal, but also implement a racer's handicap (just like the 80's NASCAR class) for the 3 C class. The AAR Cuda body (1/24) will still be banned since this body is much larger than scale. The recently discussed '46-'56 racing class will be added to the existing stock 36D class. This combined class will be for stock cars from 1946 to 1979. Also, the Falcon II and Slick 7 Mini-Brute sealed motors will be allowed for this racing class. The motor must be mounted inline just as the 36D motor. Either motor (36D or Falcon type) can be used.
Keith
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timneja
Full Member
Love racing these hard body cars!! The new knee is working better--so I'll be back soon!!
Posts: 191
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Post by timneja on Nov 19, 2012 20:03:17 GMT -8
Wow--congratulations on making a very LOGICAL decision!! Good for our hard body racing!! I'm working on some new toys now--is the TSR Home track motor ALSO good for the new class? Along with the Falcon II and Slick 7 Mini Brute? I'm getting out my jig now -- nice call Keith and my fellow HB fans!! And so I understand--it's now 46 to 1979 as one class??
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timneja
Full Member
Love racing these hard body cars!! The new knee is working better--so I'll be back soon!!
Posts: 191
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Post by timneja on Nov 19, 2012 20:05:28 GMT -8
I mean the class is now 46 to 79?? OR--it's 46 to 56 for the Falcon style motors? and up to 79 for 36D?
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Post by Keith Tanaka on Nov 19, 2012 20:33:52 GMT -8
Tim, I will be posting the new rules for the revised 36D NASCAR class soon. Basically, it's the same class except we now can have cars from 1946 thru 1979. Besides using a stock 36D motor, you can also use either a Falcon II or Slick 7 Mini-Brute motor. This class will remain an "inline" class as it will serve as an introductory class for newbies as well as anyone else. Since inlines are easier to build, it will appeal to newcomers more than our other classes (anglewiders, sidewinders). The reason for these changes is to make it easier for everyone to build/race these early NASCAR racers without having to deal with the 36D motor issues. Most racers do not have the knowledge or interest in dealing with 36D motors. For those who already have a stock 36D NASCAR, they can of course continue to race them. I tested several motors recently and decided the Falcon II and Slick 7 Mini-Brute motors are closest in performance to the existing 36D stock motor. I also tested the TSRF homeset motor and it was definitely slower than the 36D.
Keith
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